Religous philosophy?

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Lithium_joe
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by Lithium_joe »

It is extremely questionable whether inductivism (i.e. proof by empirical evidence) is a valid method of proof

Given this methodological weakness, all of your previous expositions are no more than theories, with some, albeit frequently disputed, empirical evidence. That is why all scientific laws and popular theories never lose their 'theory' tag.

If you don't mind my saying so, it appears you have a view of science that seems to have become stuck in the 18th century.

The key problem with inductivism which as your rightly point out proceeds from general statements to proof with empirical evidence, is that in order to maintain a hypothesis would require an infinite number of observations. It is what philosophers call quantifying over unlimited domains. For example, I studied philosophy at the University of Hull. It is a little known fact abut the city of Hull is that it (used to have) a privately owned telephone firm, not BT. One of the most obvious features of Hull for this reason, was that all the telephone boxes were white.

http://www.lazyllama.com/photos/albums/ ... yphone.jpg

Now, take your average Hullian, schooled in Inductive thinking, who says thus: "all telephone boxes are white", and to prove it he goes street to street, and in every street he finds a white telephone box. Case closed you might think. Of course had our inductivist proceeded beyond the border of Humberside he would have found phone boxes that weren't white and then his theory would be in trouble. And that is problem of inductivist logic: it asserts (in the case of hypothesising about the asthetics of street furniture) that ALL telephone boxes EVERYWHERE are white, when of course they are not, in short in qualifies over unlimited domains.

You can perform as many experiments as you like to prove a theory (in this case making observations in accordance with the theory) but there theory is never proven. This is severely limiting on the importance of individual observations and presumes the uniformity of nature which I note you make mention of in your list of 'science problems (number 7, which is like assuming the uniformity of telephone boxes.

Falsification

No modern scientist thinks this way. The empirical collection of data as the principal way of ascertaining what is true is still the going concern but it all changed (particularly in the West after World War II) When Karl Popper published his English version of The Logic of Scientific Discovery (it was first published in Germany in 1934) he establishs falsification as a preferred method of scientific enquiry.

Falsification even has a formal expression in logic and probability
P implies Q.
Q is false
Therefore it can be logically concluded that P must be false.

Popper's insight was that the observation of a single non-white telephone box will falsify the statement. He argued that methodological falsificiationism should be adopted by science, and this is important because theories are made up of many such statements. In effect what he was arguing for is that scientific theories refine themselves by becoming less wrong. It would be possible for instance for our inductivist hull-born telephone scientist to correspond with some one in Cornwall who insist that phone boxes in Cornwall are blue (I've no idea if they are or not I'm just trying to illustrate an example) Hull-man might then recompose his statement: 'all telephone boxes are white, except those in Cornwall' or 'All telephone boxes are white and Cornish telephone box scientists are incompetent.' such ad hoc hypothesis adjustments is not what methodological falsification is about.

That classic example of methodological falsification in action and to refer to my previous post is Newton and Einsetin.
Newton's law (the force of gravity between two masses is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them) and the attending laws of motion and a lot of maths can do a pretty good job of describing gravity and the motions of the planets, or at least most of them. The precession of the orbit of Mercury was not predicted by Newton's mechanics. It's a flaw, it's a problem it's falsifies Newton's mechanics - but here's the the thing: NOT ABSOLUTELY it just means something is unaccounted for. Einstein's general relativity can account for the orbit of the planet Mercury, it succeeds where Newton ideas fail. This doesn't discredit Newton, Newtonian mechanics work just fine for most things up to and including launching space shuttles but it is an imperfect theory. Including general relativity (gravity understood as the warping of the geometry of space-time) extends our knowledge of not only how gravity works (the inverse square law is still true) but also explains that gravity corresponds to changes in the properties of space and time, which in turn changes the straightest-possible paths that objects will naturally follow, which can be summed up as spacetime tells matter how to move; matter tells spacetime how to curve.

And this is what puts the lie to your assertion about methodological weakness and 'no more than theories'

I've tried to demonstrate that what you have argued is the scientific method, does not correspond to science as practiced in the 21st century. Hence you have produced a flawed analysis based on a redundant approach. This is not why scientific laws 'never loose their theory tag', as you put it. A scientific theory is a broad desription of a collection of specific hypotheses, past empirical observations, and predictions of unobserved phenomena which can be tested and falsified . This means all theories are (pay attention) tentative and subject to correction or inclusion in a wider theory
The methodological weakness of induction has been corrected by methodological falsification which is what is used to construct tests and models and predictions. When these tests do not falsify confidence in the correctness of a theory increases but it can always potentially be falsified and never 'proven'. Hence most scientific theories you will find discuss what is 'probably' the case - for this reason.

If you think my explanations of grenade detonations and how photons create colour are theories - great we're on the same wavelength, finally!

If, however, you think that being theoretical is somehow a position of weakness, in which we cannot place our confidence becasue you missunderstand what 'a theory of something' , I advise you never to fly in a plane just in case Newton's third law of motion suddenly decides to stop working.

A a brief word about that. Newton's laws are 'just theories', that is to say observations with confirmations which indicated order and patterns got called 'laws' back in the day. If Darwin had been writing a hundred years earlier we'd be taking about the Law of Evolution, and if Newton had been writing two hundred years later it would be the Theory of Gravity.


Parsimony

Not one of the sirens from Greek mythology*, this is a principle of applying, what is known as Occam's Razor from the 14th century William of Ockham. Occam's razor has two formulations in Latin:

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity.

and

Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate
Plurality should not be posited without necessity


Taken together, it can be said that parsimony is the principle of selecting the theory to explain observations that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities to explain the observed result.


------------------------

Two principles of modern science

The requirement to put to the test hypotheses and attempt to falsify them is today the standard methodological approach of confirming or rejecting hypotheses and is about as far removed from the picture of simple induction (which I acknowledge is flawed) you present as possible. The Parsimonious principle is the one that says the best explanation is usually the simplest. although it is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules - to quote Pirates of the Caribbean - so the explanations may be quite complex but tend to not have multiple entities beyond necessity. i.e sufficinent explanations. An assumption of a god acting behind a natural process (which may itself consist of several complex and interacting components as in the Poseidon and weather pattern example) is to multiply unecassarily the number of entities involved. You don't need a god to explain the phenomenon. And so it is with all things.

The example as it relates to evolution would go something like this:

The evolution of the great apes and humans from a common ancestor predicts a (geologically) recent common ancestor of apes and humans. Molecular biology identifies DNA as the mechanism for inherited traits. Therefore if common descent is true, human DNA should be more similar to great apes than other mammals. If this is not the case, then common descent is falsified. DNA analysis has shown that humans and the great apes share a large percentage of their DNA, and hence human evolution has passed a falsifiable test. Assuming the a god or controlling force has manipulated this process is to introduced unnecessary plurality (more entities than are required) to sufficiently explain the phenomenon.



*That would be Parthenope.
Last edited by Lithium_joe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Lithium_joe
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by Lithium_joe »

Oh honestly, Lurker be serious! :rolleyes:
The point I've made repeatedly is that there is no evidence of supernatural creation.
Theists would disagree with you.
So theists have evidence of supernatural creation then do they? Good. This ought to be worth hearing. What is it then?
No credible scientist would dispute that.
Theistic scientists would disagree with you.
Yes; hence the operative adjective "credible".

I'm not saying scientists can't believe in god. That would be nonsense. No, the kind of figure I've got in mind is someone like Michael Behe. A microbiologist by training and a proponent of 'Intelligent Design', particularly fond of the argument from irreducible complexity - which has been debunked more times than James Randi's had hot dinners - Behe testified for the defence in the Dover Area School District Vs Kitzmiller et al trial and was utterly humiliated and discredited for his efforts. The trial famously concluded with the judge's ruling that Intelligent Design, promoted by Behe and others, was emphatically, categorically and definitively not a scientific theory.

Helpfully the ACLU have transcripts for the entire trial on their website.
http://www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket ... cripts.htm

I feel certain Michael Behe would disagree with much of what I have said in this board.
Micheal Behe is not a credible scientist. He can disagree with me all he likes. The evidence is on my side of the argument not his.


And that is all from me for tonight.

I really will try to answer every point made in rebuttal to me. So far I've only managed to get to the 2nd paragraph of Mattie's first post to me. I'm working my way down the list and I'll get to y'all eventually.


LJ.
"You don't get anything worth getting by pretending to know things you don't know."
~ Sam Harris.
Lithium_joe
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by Lithium_joe »

allow me to clarify my position regarding the big bang theory.
Allow me also to clarify: I was only trying to correct what is a quite commonly held misunderstanding by demonstrating the difference between explosions proper and expansion as conceived in the big bang model.
A 'state of being' in the pre-universe would still have been required [...] this is beyond scientific dispute.
Enough with the declarative statements. What took place in the early universe is still not known. There is no shame attached in admitting that for scientists and it does theists no good to then start assuming a god did it and specifically their god. What is known however is a lot of the evidence (which I'll no doubt get to discussing when I try to talk the 10 long list of so-called 'problems') which points to a very dense, very hot beginning which then inflated. To which you'll say: ah heat and light, see? It had to have been created! Well not so. That's an assumption. All this does is to raise questions for which there are not yet easy or complete answers. What there is, are many hypotheses that are consistent with observations.

Just for example:

I read in the news today about an observed phenomenon called 'dark flow' which points to something possibly outside of the visible universe (visible being what is contained within the expanding bubble of inflation) whatever else the universe entire consists in, might lay outside of this 'local' bubble. It's a theory trying to explain an observed phenomena: that's all.

The universe might even be cyclical
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/a ... /5572/1436

or

The Big Bang Model (which has suffered the kind of multiple ad hoc hypothesis adjustments that I described above in outlining falsificationism) might yet be replaced by a theory which is based on String Theory and higher dimensions in order to explain the earliest moments of universal origin.
http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~steinh/npr/

I suggest you read carefully the explanation given in this webpage, (see I can cite my sources) particularly the lengths they go to to explain that the so called Ekpyrotic model corrects hypotheses surrounding the early moments but thereafter the universe procedes as understood.
And note to accept this as accurate you have to accept the tennets of string theory and the existence of more dimensions than the 4 we know of. It is an alternative model that is seeking to falsify the standard big bang model. It doesn't invalidate the big bang, if it is right - and at this point, who knows? - it would improve the theory by accounting for phenomena the standard model could not.


I hope these examples clarify my position in regard to big bang theory. The answer to the question of what happened is not yet known.
That is not 'skirting around the issue', that being honest; something that the 'god did it' society seem habituably incapable of adopting becasue they already know what happened. It tells them in their book, which is all they ever need.


LJ
"You don't get anything worth getting by pretending to know things you don't know."
~ Sam Harris.
Lithium_joe
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by Lithium_joe »

I want to start with your final point first, if I may, because I think it relates to the following.
Of course, atheists would undoubtedly argue that all the above is a mere coincidence (calculated at infinitesimal odds), but I somehow doubt it!
I think you need to distinguish between atheism and science: the two are not identical. An atheistic position is just this: there are no gods. From this other things can be derived but the denial of the supernatural vis a vis, deistic and theistic entities is where it's at.

Science on the other hand is the total collection of knowledge based on empirical study and naturalistic enquiry about natural processes; capable making testable hypotheses and predictions about the world from knowledge derived from past observations.
Using science it is possible to reach conclusions about how the world is and works.

You start by saying your not convinced by science - I can see that :-k - but you conclude by dismissing an argument about atheism that I don't quiet recognise (but I'll be coming onto that so don't worry) so it seems to me that you are conflating the two. You may not be persuaded by atheism, a pity to be sure, but there's always some ( ;) ) but please do be convinced by the science.

If this tension between science and your faith is what is stopping your from understanding the implications of the science then let me try to at least explain it better for you.


The theory of evolution by natural selection accounts for the complexity if all life in biology, it is not just restricted to humans. There is a wealth of fossil (especially micro fossils), molecular, genetic, embryological and anatomical evidence that establishes evolution has taken place.

One of the key things that strike biologists whenever they study life is just how poorly put together it is. Far from being a miracle of design, much of it is composed of work-arounds, make-dos and jerry-rigged structures which just about do the job but are not evidence of either design or intelligence. These poor or at the very least puzzling structures were not designed or intelligently put together, they evolved just enough to be sufficient for survival. Evolution doesn't require perfection; any solution (which remember is encoded genetically in that animals genes) that enables it to survive just long enough to reproduce will do.

Examples are plentiful so let me provide you with some.

A panda's wrist has one bone that has become modified into a crude thumb. It is not jointed or particularly strong but it allows Pandas - that most curious of contradictions: a vegetarian carnivore - to strip the leaves from bamboo stalks which is their main source of food. It's crude and clumsy but it works. (Remember Pandas a dying out because humans an encroaching on their habitat not because they are starving to death.)

The odd thing about the cave-dwelling salamander is that it still has remnants of eyes despite being completely blind in a completely dark habitat. Why create a creature that has non functional eyes?

The design is not efficient either. The laryngeal nerve in humans connects the brain to the larynx and gives us the fine control of the muscles in the throat which amongst other things lets us speak. In all mammals this nerve doesn;t run straight from the brain to the throat, which would be the shortest distance, hence the most efficient, and given their proximity certainly the most obvious. Instead it traverses a route that descends into the chest, loops around the aorta of the heart and then up back into the throat. In a mammal like a giraffe which has an exceedingly long neck there is 14 feet of unnecessary nerve length. The sheer waste involved is not evidence of design.

This makes perfect sense in evolutionary terms however mammals we know evolved from fish via reptiles. In early fish and mammal embryos (which look extremely similar) the development of what are called arches between the twenty-third and twenty-fourth days after implantation; in fish are incorporated into the gill structure; in mammals the same cells from the same arch structure (in this case the fourth of the group) divide and begin to build associated structures seen in mammals, in particular, the bones and muscles that form the neck, including the laryngeal nerve that passes between them. Why is this not seen in fish? Well the major reason is fish don't have necks. the genetic code doesn't build bodies that need them. So why the similarity, the divergence and the increased complexity in humans? Because the neck like any other structures but especially in vertebrates (including fish) is a structure which has evolved.

And if you want to maintain that the god of intelligent deign is a benevolent god, how then to account for the design which is not only poor or incompetent but is also downright cruel?

The classic example of this is the family of wasps known as Ichneumonidae, comprising about 3300 different species who all reproduce in the same way. The female will paralyse her prey with her sting, and then injects into the still living animal using her ovipositor her batch of fertilised eggs. The victim remember is just paralysed and still quiet alive. She then covers the nursery with loose soil and stone and flies off. When the eggs hatch they gestate and mature by eating the unfortunate creature (probably a caterpillar) from the inside out. And it's not a quick kill. The hatched wasps seem to target the less essential parts first and only consume the organs keeping the caterpillar alive last. If it has any capacity for registering pain this is an agonising death without parallel outside of perhaps the Ridley Scott movie "Alien".

This is the classic problem of Theodicy* otherwise known as the problem of evil which Christian apologetics has always struggled with and which Intelligent Design theorists cannot explain if the intelligent designer is the same god which is supposed to be lord and saviour of us all. The Ichneumonidae reproductive strategy is a very clever survival tactic, the mother has to have no part in the safeguarding and nurturing which means it can reproduce many time sand not expend more energy or time on the safeguarding of her offspring which are secure underground with a well-stocked food source. One of the many things this isn't is nice but that doesn't bother the biologist.

Even before the destruction of the intellectual position of Intelligent Design that came with the conclusion of the Dover V Kitzmiller trial, Intelligent design didn't present itself as a rival theory for the origin of biological complexity, it doesn't and cannot account for any of the examples I quoted above. It is essentially, a whinge, thus: x,y and z are too complex - and what was it you said? - seems to purposeful and ingenious to have come about without a creator, so a creator must have been involved!

While I regularly deny the evidence for a supernatural creator, as an atheist, I ask what intelligent design theory can account for the examples I've quoted? I recognise that science, and the theory of evolution can.


Now turning to your list:
experience emotions, be receptive to external stimuli, use their ingenuity
Frankly I find these examples to be a very odd collection of reasons to think humans were designed but oh well. But I'll try to engage you on this. Before I do, however, can you please clarify what you mean by "balance"? you've used this concept a couple of times and I don't understand what you mean by it.

I'll not expend vast amounts of text on this because I'm not sure it makes much sense. Evolutionary accounts can be given of why we experience subjective emotional states, be it love, fear, altruism etc - including the chemistry that underlies them and because of the huge advances in scanning technology, even which parts of the brain are active during an emotional state. Because the brain, as probably the defining organ of our species, is something which evidence again shows to have evolved I'm really not clear what point your making or how this relates to intelligent design, beyond the 'isn't it all so wonderful? God must have done it' catechism.
Experiencing external stimuli then. I presume you mean the senses here. If you want to discuss the structure of eyes or heaven forfend the ears or the nose all equally fascinating - once again what the evidence shows is a complex evolutionary history which in no way supports intelligent design.
Lastly 'use their ingenuity', well you've really stumped me this time I can't work out what you might mean.

You seem to be stumbling over a kind of dualist philosophy. The body is very complex; the mind is also very complex. So complex I hae to invent a god to explain them. Both body and mind are better understood now that at any point in the past. Scientists are rightly amazed; but what you say amounts to little more than a truism. Scientists and doctors have realised that the brain and the mind are very complex. An official spokesmen for scientists and doctors everywhere today read out a prepared statement: "We were astounded!"

Lastly you make mention of improbability. This is a classic creationist argument that is regularly rebutted by atheists: see atheists don't argue for coincidence or purpose. I've said when I started, Atheism is just the denial of supernatural entities. Assessing a posteriori the improbability of something always shows it was vastly improbable. Today I've been to the chemist and back I bought some Menthol crystals for my cold. Mentha arvensis is the plant from which menthol crystals are derived it grows and is harvested typically in India. If you could have travlled to India in advance of today been taken to the mint planation when and selectted the plant from whcih solution the crystasl were grown, disseminated into precisely measured pots and sent off in batches to the shipping plants and delivered in huge quantities dispersed around the UK to various chemists, a box of whcih arrived in my locla pharmecy and which I brought today.

What were the odds that a part of that plant would end up in my hand? The odds are infinitesimal and yet....it happened!

If you have a familiarity with probabilistic arguments that any complex sequence is extremely improbable even though they actually occur. After the fact protestations are meaningless. So to return to my opening gambit: scientists, not atheists argue that the process. Your error over the Big Bang may have been incorrectly labelled by you as such, but arguments from probability in the hands of creationists and intelligent design proponents truly are spurious!

So the improbability argument doesn't hold water. Evolution is not a process of random chance or a coincidence. Natural selection is what weeds out the unfavourable variations and greatly increases the likelihood of favourable variations surviving to reproduce. The world is extremely complex and improbable but the process of how it came to be so is verifiable and understood and in no way demonstrates examples of ad hoc creation or design.

Your doubt, I fear, is misplaced.

Debating proponents of creationism and intelligent design (your not my first, nor likely to be my last) one often sees the same arguments and tropes being totted out time and again, and I can and feel have so far answered all of the counter points put to me in defence of the body of scientific discoveries, the scientific method and it's theories. And yet Creationists and the 'Intelligent Design is our True Science' (IDiots) brigade just tyically ignore the fact that there arguments have been dismissed, countered or exposed as falsehoods and try it again. and again. and again ](*,)

The experience is reminiscent of that scene from Monty Python and The Holy Grail where King Arthur battles The Black Knight.

If I may construct a metaphor:

Science (King Arthur) wants to cross the bridge and continue on it's journey towards greater understanding and knowledge (the Holy Grail). Creationism (The Black Night) stands in Science's way. When Creationsim refuses to recognise Science's authority and stand aside, they do battle and little by little Science chops off all of Creationism's limbs (exposing all of it's arguments to be false) until mutilated, amputated and bleeding, Creationism collapses by the road-side unable to suport itself but uncowed in defeat.

"The Black Knight always triumphs!" it hollers, "I'm invincible."

To which there is only one logical response:

"You're a loony!."

In case you've no idea what I'm talking about please watch the following for context:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjEcj8KpuJw

So in conclusion: exhausting certainly, but far from exhausted.


That's all of Mattie's post answered, next I'll tackle Lurker.

LJ.



*not a tall tale about one man and his boat
Last edited by Lithium_joe on Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
"You don't get anything worth getting by pretending to know things you don't know."
~ Sam Harris.
The Lurker
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by The Lurker »

Lithium_joe wrote:Oh honestly, Lurker be serious! :rolleyes:
I'm being deadly serious O:)

So theists have evidence of supernatural creation then do they? Good. This ought to be worth hearing. What is it then?
We have already agreed that you can't empirically prove or disprove the existance of God, however theists have experienced God in a myriad of different ways which is evidence enough for them. Unless you have had that experience you are never going to accept the evidence presented to you.

Yes; hence the operative adjective "credible".
Just as you can get a few theistic scientists who are not credible you can also get a few atheistic scientists who are not credible.
Lithium_joe
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by Lithium_joe »

How can you be 'accidentally' TT!!! ???
It happened when I was an undergraduate. I was in my final year and I become so busy researching and writing my dissertation I 'forgot' to go to the pub for roughly 6 months. Well I say forgot; it was more of a straight choice.

"hey we're going off down the pub then onto so-and-so club, you coming?

"I'd love to...but I've got these three chapters to read and I'm making notes on my 2nd chapter."

and so it went.

Finally, I realise it's June, the suns out and I've not had a drink in....months.

And I've never since re-acquired the taste for it but that's probably a good thing.

Being this thread's only apparent atheist, I'm sober in mind, as well as in body. :whistle:


Unfortunately I don't know it and I'm too lazy to google it
Ask and ye shall receive for I am kind and munificent.


The Philosophers Drinking Song by Eric Idle

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out consume
Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
who was just as sloshed as Schlegel.

There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'bout the raisin' of the wrist.
Socrates himself was permanently pissed.

John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
after half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away,
'alf a crate of whiskey every day!
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
and Hobbes was fond of his Dram.
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
"I drink, therefore I am."

Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.


:evilb:
Last edited by Lithium_joe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You don't get anything worth getting by pretending to know things you don't know."
~ Sam Harris.
The Lurker
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by The Lurker »

Lithium_joe wrote: Ask and ye shall receive for I am kind and munificent.

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out consume
Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
who was just as sloshed as Schlegel.

There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'bout the raisin' of the wrist.
Socrates himself was permanently pissed.

John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
after half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away,
'alf a crate of whiskey every day!
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
and Hobbes was fond of his Dram.
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
"I drink, therefore I am."

Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.


:evilb:
RFLMAO :evilb: :grin:
Lithium_joe
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by Lithium_joe »

Oh honestly, Lurker be serious!
I'm being deadly serious
I've no doubt. But 'he said, she said' arguments, really?

Theists say, scientists say...so what? The difference is over evidence.
Theists have experienced God in a myriad of different ways which is evidence enough for them.
Regarding what I said to Mattie (above) about the reliability of creationist arguments: the same goes for theistic arguements. When there is no external evidence to support the asertion of an active and interventionist god, the palce theists always retreat to is subjective experience which doesn't count for toffee.

People have experienced being abducted by aliens, people have experienced out-of-body floatation. There is no objective evidence or means by where it be checked or verified or tested to be true.

People claim to know things quite freely and without any evidence but that doesn't make what they believe true.

Proof by empirical evidence is actually the only way we know to arrive at the truth.

Aristotle tried to work out the way the world must be by pure reason, with spectacularly bad results. (How many legs do flies have Aristotle?) Others claimed to have been imparted knowledge via divine revelation, but since their answers contradict one another and they can't all be right, who do you believe? Even the Bible is a mass of contradictions. The only way to know which bits to accept as truth is to have some way of investigating the truth-claims and corroborating them. This is known as proof by empirical evidence.

You said you'd studied science, how is that is not known to you?
Just as you can get a few theistic scientists who are not credible you can also get a few atheistic scientists who are not credible.
Certainly - there are frauds in every profession, sad but true. Any examples? I've given you one.

The point I was making, if I recall correctly, was about why arguments based on authority are flimsy and insubstantial.
What gives sciences it's credibility, is the methodology it follows (some of which I've tried to spell out) , the system of peer review (which can viciously dismiss claims which have no legitimacy) and the principle of repeatability and verification which check and recheck results looking for anomolies and attempting to falsify. It is not the stature or status of the person who says it that is. Einstein after all was a patents clerk in Bern when he submitted his papers on brownian motion, light, and general relativity and mass/energy equivalence in 1905. What established him was that his results could be checked and tested.

The made-up superstitions of religion are not credible in anywhere close to the same way. So when you say theistic scientists would disagree (and remember I'm not identifying scientists who believe in a god or gods as theistic scientists but those purveyors of pseudo-science like Behe and his cohort) They may be a tortured minority but that doesn't make them right. Because there is no objective or scientific evidence to back up the subjective opinions of theists and theistic scientists, when I said:
There is no evidence of supernatural creation. No credible scientist would dispute that.
I meant it.


In fact I'll amend it for your benefit.

There is no objective evidence of supernatural creation. No credible scientist would dispute that.
Last edited by Lithium_joe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lithium_joe
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by Lithium_joe »

Is there any example, in any discipline, where a previously held scientific idea has been over-turned by a religious idea now seen to be correct? And while you ponder that, let me further ask can anyone think of the converse case where religious ideas have been overturned by better scientific ones?

I'm willing to wager that you mean evolution . Science is the how, theology is the why, and that's the pattern. Most theistic people including scientists accept that concept.
I did not mean specifically evolution - you presume too much ;) - you could have chosen discoveries in medicine, geology, zoology; evolution is a very good example but it's by far not the only one.
Science is the how, theology is the why
Honestly, Theistic arguments: more regular than a William Paley original pocket-watch or a high-fibre diet. :rolleyes:

All lines of scientific inquiry start with "why"; the "how" is what develops in the attempt to answer the original why question.
  • Why do objects fall to the earth when dropped?

    Why is the sky blue?

    Why do fish have gills?
All of these questions at one time didn't have an answer that could be definitively and empirically determined until someone investigated those things scientifically and determined the how. Once done , the previous "why" question became moot.

It is important to note that those new questions have less and less relevance to the importance of the preceding answers to our world. For example, by answering "why do objects fall to the earth when dropped?" The answer, gravity, eventually replaced the Aristotelean notion that 'stones like to be on the ground.' but doesn;t explain what gravity is, as if most people need to know (although I wish more did.)

The scientists that worked out the "how" of gravity were then able to come up with detailed rules to allow us to understand the behaviour of objects under the control of any gravitational field, be it on the Earth or on the Moon or elsewhere. This still begs a deeper "why" of why does the Earth have gravity? And as previously discussed Albert Einstein has done the most in furtherance of answering this question but answers await in explaining gravity at the quantum level.

So it's flat out wrong to assert that science doesn't answer why questions.

Now if you mean science doesn't tell us how to live - well that's quite true.

'Why' questions, in this context, I suppose can be summed up as the search for purpose. What science typically reveals, of course, in that life has no inherent purpose. Return to the very start of this thread you'll see I defended a position of our meanings like our gods are created by us and will die with us: life has no inherent purposiveness. And nothing I've said about correcting the substaial errors about scientific methodology or theory to date have implied anything about a grand order or divine plan.

As an atheist, with no belief in supernatural beings and therefore no god given purposes, I find the very thought of surviving my own death, and being condemned supposedly to heaven or hell, is not only borish nonsense but seems to me to drastically undermine meaning and purpose in this life, if - what happens when life ends - is that really it doesn't.

This cuts to the idea of taking responsibility, for the planet, for each other, four ourselves, for our knowledge. Why bother striving to understand anything at all if this life is just the trailer for the enternal life hereatfer?

Since I happily don't believe in ultimate judgement by a deity and am not persuaded that I will survive my own death, I am instead really rather persuaded that what matters is this life, and the idea that we all share a responsibility, including the deluded and the religious amongst us to embrace that responsibility rather than flee from it into the arms of fictitious super beings.

This is not to say of course that life is without meaning: quiet the contrary It is replete with multiple meanings. People live out purposes every day, but - for want of repetition - our meanings, like ours gods are made by us.

I think our purposes are what we make of them and they can be for good or ill. Which is why I go to such lengths to counter the deluge of uncritical thinking I encounter on the internet because I value what science reveals about the world in which I live and I will not see that ground ceded to theistic drivel.

What theists don't seem to realise is they have created their own meanings too, but theirs are gods but they are deluded in this assumption gods are an objective guarantor of meaning.

When theists ask, 'what purpose does science /atheism reveal about life?', what they typically mean by such a question is: "What meaning can there be without God?"

Becasue the thought of a life without their invisible, imaginary friend is terrifying. :boxedin:

I say that not in anger; but pity.

LJ.
Last edited by Lithium_joe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by The Lurker »

Lithium_joe wrote:
I've no doubt. But 'he said, she said' arguments, really?

Theists say, scientists say...so what? The difference is over evidence.
I am not talking about Theists vs Scientists, I am talking about Theistic Scientists of which there are many, and I don't just mean the famous ones, but the "run of the mill" ones (for want of a better word). I actually know more scientists who are Theists than are Atheists

Regarding what I said to Mattie (above) about the reliability of creationist arguments: the same goes for theistic arguements.
??? Creationist believe the world was made in 7 days or 6, or however many. Theistic Evolutionsists (to use the correct terminology) accept the scientific theories in the same way as you do, but believe there is more to it than just the scientific theories.
When there is no external evidence to support the asertion of an active and interventionist god, the palce theists always retreat to is subjective experience which doesn't count for toffee.
Faith is subjective. When/if you ever experience it you will know what we are talking about; if not we are never going to convince you otherwise, that is the nature of the beast (excuse the pun :grin: )


People claim to know things quite freely and without any evidence but that doesn't make what they believe true.
Theists do have evidence, but it is not empirical - unless you experience it personally nothing we say or do will convince you of the evidence.
Proof by empirical evidence is actually the only way we know to arrive at the truth.
Not so.
Others claimed to have been divine revelation, but since their answers contradict one another, they can't all be right, so who do you believe?
I believe all roads eventually lead to Rome (to coin a well known phrase :grin:)
Even the Bible is a mass of contradictions.
Yes that is true :)
The only way to know which bits to accept as truth is to have some way of investigating the truth-claims and corroborating them. This is known as proof by empirical evidence.
Faith can not be empirically proven. Even as an Atheist you have faith in things which can't be empirically proven. You can't for instance empirically prove that God does not exist, any more than I can prove He does exist :P

Certainly - there are frauds in every profession, sad but true. Any examples? I've given you one.
There are numerous atheist scientists who have come up with whacky ideas, but I don't have the time just now to dig out particular names - but the fact that you say there are frauds in every profession is the point and case
The point I was making, if I recall correctly, was about why arguments based on authority are flimsy and insubstantial.
What gives sciences it's credibility, is the methodology it follows (some of which I've tried to spell out) , the system of peer review (which can viciously dismiss claims which have no legitimacy) and the principle of repeatability and verification which check and recheck results looking for anomolies and attempting to falsify. It is not the stature or status of the person who says it that is. Einstein after all was a patents clerk in Bern when he submitted his papers on brownian motion, light, and general relativity and mass/energy equivalence in 1905. What established him was that his results could be checked and tested.
You don't need to sell science to me, I'm a Scientist ;)
The made-up superstitions of religion are not credible in anywhere close to the same way.
They are not made up superstitions :P
So when you say theistic scientists would disagree (and remember I'm not identifying scientists who believe in a god or gods as theistic scientists but those purveyors of pseudo-science like Behe and his cohort) They may be a tortured minority but that doesn't make them right. Because there is no objective or scientific evidence to back up the subjective opinions of theists and theistic scientists, when I said:
There is no evidence of supernatural creation. No credible scientist would dispute that.
I meant it.


In fact I'll amend it for your benefit.

There is no objective evidence of supernatural creation. No credible scientist would dispute that.
You're moving the goal posts - first you were tarring all theistic scientists with the same stick and now you are saying it is just a few. I don't disagree - there are whacky theistic scientists out there, but there are also whacky atheistic scientists out there.
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by Lithium_joe »

Hmm. Well let me try to be plain and clear up any confusions since that will be in all of our interests. Agreed? ;)

Any body can believe in one god, many gods or no gods. That is their right and privilege. Those self same people may be scientists.
I would think of those people as scientists who believe in god. Nothing controversial about that and I would never seek to deny them that right or freedom.

To my mind a theistic scientist is someone who tries to justify pseudoscientific conclusions from faith derived premises.

If you felt I'd conflated the two at any point I apologise, that was not my intention nor reflects my attitude.

I had thought I'd made it clear earlier that I was making that distinction.

If as you say theistic evolutionists accept the theory as I do but think there "more to it" , this serves as an example: because faith as you confirm is a subjective experience and not subject to empirical observation it therefore cannot be falsified, hence it is not science.

So you can't proceed from non-scientific premises (like god guides evolution which proceeds by natural selection and random mutation) and arrive at scientific conclusion when you define faith (and entities established by faith, like gods) as being outside of empiricism. In short theistic evolutionists can think there is more to evolution than what the evidence shows but such opinions will not submit for testing so cannot be falsified or be considered sound science.

A scientist who believes in god, might well believe the same thing: that behind it all is god's guiding hand, but if that is just their opinion and they carry out their job professionally and without bias, I cannot and do not attack that. What I attack is the theistic scientist who, in my conception, falsely uses science to try to back up unjustifiable assertions without evidence.

I'm also not trying to tell you your job. If my rhetoric soared to such levels, then again I apologise, I had not meant to be rude.


That is my apology and clarification concluded. Next I want to pick up on the points of disagreement again, I've gone pretty heavy on the rebuttal, so for once I'll strive for light-hearted whimsy if I can.

LJ
Last edited by Lithium_joe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by Lithium_joe »

No evidence of supernatural creation. No credible scientist would dispute that. [LJ]
Theistic scientists would disagree with you. [L]
Yes; hence the operative adjective "credible".[LJ]
You can get a few theistic scientists who are not credible you can also get a few atheistic scientists who are not credible.[L]
Certainly - there are frauds in every profession, sad but true. Any examples? I've given you one.[LJ]
There are numerous atheist scientists who have come up with whacky ideas.[L]
I explained in my clarifying post what I think qualifies as a theistic scientist and why I think that makes their claims not credible. However, it should be noted that there are big differences between having fraudulent, credible, incredible and wacky ideas.

---------------------------------


They are not made up superstitions :P

Wanna bet? ;)


---------------------------------

Proof by empirical evidence is actually the only way we know to arrive at the truth. [LJ]
Not so. [L]
Oh really? :-s What are the others? :-k

----------------------------------
nothing we say or do will convince you of the evidence
If the 'evidence' are the voices of subjective experience I suspect I'll be waiting a lo-o-o-o-o-ng time for that revelation. ;)
"You don't get anything worth getting by pretending to know things you don't know."
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by The Lurker »

Lithium_joe wrote:Hmm. Well let me try to be plain and clear up any confusions since that will be in all of our interests. Agreed? ;)

Any body can believe in one god, many gods or no gods. That is their right and privilege. Those self same people may be scientists.
I would think of those people as scientists who believe in god. Nothing controversial about that and I would never seek to deny them that right or freedom.

To my mind a theistic scientist is someone who tries to justify pseudoscientific conclusions from faith derived premises.

If you felt I'd conflated the two at any point I apologise, that was not my intention nor reflects my attitude.

I had thought I'd made it clear earlier that I was making that distinction.
Let me clarify myself as well ;) Wherever I stated theistic scientist I meant a scientist who believed in God and one who believes that God has a 'role' in what we observe empirically as the evolutionary processes, nothing more, nothing less, and certainly not your Wacko Jacko stuff :grin:

If as you say theistic evolutionists accept the theory as I do but think there "more to it" , this serves as an example: because faith as you confirm is a subjective experience and not subject to empirical observation it therefore cannot be falsified, hence it is not science.
I never said faith was science and it was not my intention to imply that, but a person who believes God had a role in evolution however subjective that role is - a theistic evolutionist - does believe there is more to biological evolution than just the empirical evidence, that is where faith enters the equation - have I made myself clear as mud - thats the problem with dyspraxia and discussion boards :grin:
So you can't proceed from non-scientific premises (like god guides evolution which proceeds by natural selection and random mutation) and arrive at scientific conclusion when you define faith (and entities established by faith, like gods) as being outside of empiricism. In short theistic evolutionists can think there is more to evolution than what the evidence shows but such opinions will not submit for testing so cannot falsified or be considered sound science.

A scientist who believes in god, might well believe the same thing: hat behind it all is god's guiding hand, but if that is their opinion and they carry out their job professionally and without bias and I cannot and do not attack that. What I attack is the theistic scientist who in my conception falsely uses science to try to back up unjustifiable assertions without evidence.
I hope I clarified my stance up above, and that you will agree that we both actually agree about the same things, give or take your belief in a God :grin:
I'm also not trying to tell you your job. If my rhetoric soared to such levels, then again I apologise, I had not meant to be rude.
That would be kinda difficult since I am in the business of letting houses to folk :P

That is my apology and clarification concluded. next I want to pick up on the points of disagreement again, but Ill strive for light-hearted whimsy if I can.

LJ
I hope I've clarified as well :grin:
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by The Lurker »

I explained in my clarifying post what I think qualifies as a theistic scientist and why I think that makes their claims not credible. However, it should be noted that there are big differences between having fraudulent, credible, incredible and wacky ideas.
I hope I too clarified.

---------------------------------

They are not made up superstitions :P

Wanna bet? ;)
Yes :P


---------------------------------

Proof by empirical evidence is actually the only way we know to arrive at the truth. [LJ]
Not so. [L]

Oh really? :-s What are the others? :-k
Subjective truth as in faith, and it applies just as much to you as an atheist as it does to any theist

----------------------------------
nothing we say or do will convince you of the evidence

If the 'evidence' are the voices of subjective experience I suspect I'll be waiting a lo-o-o-o-o-ng time for that revelation. ;)
You just never know the minute ;)
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Re: Religous philosophy?

Post by Lithium_joe »

Just to be clear to anyone reading this, I'm still trying to answer the points in the order that they have been put to me. I want to try an ensure that I leave no point unanswered, so I'll be reply to Lurker's last post as and when I get to it and not immediately but eventually I will.

LJ.
"You don't get anything worth getting by pretending to know things you don't know."
~ Sam Harris.
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