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A place to talk about your experience of living with Dyspraxia

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Tortoise
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~discussion topic~ (c'mon lets talk)

Post by Tortoise »

Although we are square pegs, is the round hole more of a problem?

Have we been more handicapped by other peoples ignorance and intolerance of differences than by our actually disability?


(hmmm this is a leading question isnt it!!)
Ruth
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Post by Ruth »

Very interesting question!! on the one hand peoples intoleranca has led me to a poor view of myself - on the other hand it's bloody hard to walk down an unknown staircase without faling down it. So maybe some of both.

And then there's the fact that I get worse when people are intolerant.

If people would just let me get on and do it my way at my speed it's fine now but I've been working hard every day for 30 years to make that the case - cor don't I sound old when I say that.

I shall mull and see what comes out. Very interested to see what you lot think! and pleased I could formulate some sort of opinion.yay me \:D/

lol
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Post by fuzzy »

Interesting topic!

On a similar note; as a dyspraxic, it is common to be told that dyspraxics generally have poor self esteem. Do you think that because dyspraxics hear this time and time again from the Dyspraxia Foundation site (from stories of fellow sufferers and listings of symptoms), from Educational Physcologists, GPs etc, that perhaps, like many things, it is to a certain extent physcological? This isnt actually my opinion before i get torn to peices; i dunno where i heard it actually; i cant remeber (suprise, suprise)

What du all think? :D
Goodbye, and have a pleasant tommorrow!!
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Tortoise
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Post by Tortoise »

Firstly when you said “it is to a certain extent physcological” I had a bit of a chuckle.. state the obvious! ..yeah self esteem issues are psychological. No, I got what you meant… but its funny! :lol:

I can see the issue here and I think it’s a very observant thing to pick out. Its similar to a “self fulfilling prophecy” If you tell yourself you have low self esteem often enough, it will become a reality. If a person heard something like this continually from a professional, the dyspraxic person may start to feel a bit helpless, which further reinforces the idea that they must indeed have poor self-esteem. However, I really doubt that dyspraxics have low self-esteem because a website told them so!!! There are heaps of things you could experience because of dyspraxia and if you believe you have everyone of them you may be suffering from hypocondria!

What is even more dangerous is the potential for people to start thinking that “dyspraxia causes poor self esteem”. Dyspraxia does not directly cause poor self-esteem.

On a slightly different train of thought… being told “dyspraxics generally have poor self esteem” is very much locating the problem to something INSIDE the dyspraxic… to say a dyspraxic person suffers low self esteem as part of the disorder (e.g., to list it as a symptom) is very misleading, inaccurate and demonstrates a lack of knowledge about the condition. I think its better to identify what CAUSES the lack of self esteem. For example if they say, some dyspraxics are often excluded from groups… and group exclusion has a negative impact on a persons self esteem…. I think its more of a valid statement.

In fact in child psychopathy people are now very aware of how we attribute problems to children. Do we say that the child has behavioural problems (attributing the problem to the child) and then provide some sort of behavioural remediation treatment. OR do we dig a bit deeper? do we say that the child experiences problems at school and continuing school failure leads to extreme frustration and extreme frustrations leads to the child behaving inappropriately… and then treat the problem by improving the child’s learning environment to reduce frustration.

In a similar light… do we say that “dyspraxics have low self esteem” and feed this idea that it is somehow an innate personality trait of all dyspraxics. OR do we promote the idea that many environmental situations make it very difficult for the dyspraxic to function effectively which leads to feelings of failure and exclusion and can manifest in some people as low self-esteem. Should it be made clearer that it is a form of “environmental unfriendliness” that is the problem! Do we change the flow of thought from “dyspraxics generally have low self esteem” to “dyspraxics generally are not well included into social groups and are often rejected by their peers”. Do we focus attention on promoting inclusion and understanding or do we give the dyspraxic “self-esteem therapy”. IE.. the round hole is causing problems for the square peg…so lets fix the hole…
nick
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Post by nick »

an interesting thread. for me i look back at the very recent past when i'd never even heard of dyspraxia. i had very low self esteem and i had spent over two decades either in therapy or trying to escape it with drugs . while in therapy i looked at the effect of coming from an alcoholic family and finding drugs as a solution. i looked at all my relationships with women and looked for a link bewteen them and my relationship with my mother. i did all that and more but it never quite worked. the discoveries i made were valid but the releif never came. i saw other people with similiar issues move on with their lives but i seemed stuck. therefore, for me the fact that dyspraxia and low self esteem being linked and that some how causing a self fullfiling prophecy is not realy valid. because i had low self esteem before i knew i had dyspraixia.

furthermore, before i was diagnosed i had driven myself crazy with the thought that i was different from everyone else and that some how meant that i was worthless and suffered not only from anxiety and depression but also shame. now i know that i am neurologicaly diverse and that is the reason why i am the way i am. i feel a sense of freedom, sometimes. however, all those years of therapy were not a waste as i have learnt that i am more than just someone with dyspraxia and i have dealt with alot of different issues, it was just that an important part of the jigsaw puzzle was missing

for me knowing that i am dyspraxic means that i have key to unlock my self seteem and find some pease of mind and freedom from my inner demons. in other words, i can loose all those unrealistic expectations that i had for myself and can base my self worth on a realistic picture of who i am, including some of the gifts that dyspraxia brings. put more simply, just be happy to be myself and do the things that i want to do and give up on being some one that i never was.

i think ineeded that little rant and i'm sure i've gone off topic and probably said more than i should have done but this was a good thread thanks for posting it tortoise. jsut to come quickly back on topic. i for one belive it was and still is my ignorence and intolerance of myself rather than other peoples', that has hindered me the most. what i mean by that, is what other people chose to belevie might very well influence in a detrimental way the amount of damage that i allow that to do to my self esteem is realy upto me. unfortunately i've spent a long time being in hte habit of being my worst critic.
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Post by arthmelow »

The two people whom I care about their opinions more than anyone else: my parents. The round hole seems to be mainly imposed by them - I'm seen as an idiot because I can't listen on the phone AND write something down, or I forget a PIN I've been told several times in a few minutes, or I'm seen as lazy because up until I was 14 I got very good grades, but as the compensatory techniques grow weaker as the material in education gets harder, I'm seen as lazy because "well, you must be bright, you talk lots so why aren't you getting As anymore?".

Teachers at my old school didn't quite seem to understand that deadlines were a huge problem ( however I had one history teacher who twigged and made me stay after school for an hour a week to do the work everyone did normally during homework ). Banks don't quite seem to understand that I need my balance shown with every transaction I made, and that I can forget about standing orders or direct debits, and that I really will NOT be better off with a debit card instead of a passbook ( most of them have now phased out normal passbook accounts ).

One of the major problems I had before I was diagnosed was my memory. My parents took it as a personal insult if I forgot something( and still do ), they saw it as silly that I hated ordering things at counters where there was lots of background noise. I had speech therapy as a child and am still told by my mother that I "just didn't want to talk" rather than what was actually the case, which was that my development for everything was slower than most and talking was just as delayed as walking etc. They don't understand that for things that involve syncronised movements, such as long jump, swimming, long jump that it was going to take 3 times as long for me to learn and it wasn't because I was "lazy" or "didn't want to do it" ( so being in a class of 30 with only 2 gos per lesson wasn't going to help ). Even now my mother has read my report and dismissed it as
"danglies", even though for years she's accepted that my brother is special needs before he even got diagnosed as having aspergers syndrome at 15.

My university are actually very accomodating - the disability office and suchlike offer me tips for studying and even day to day life bits I find difficult. I'm going to open a new bank account tomorrow and hopefully they will not stop my paper statements and allow me to have a passbook account rather than a card account ( I'm going to explain it all ). The bf makes sure that I keep my diary on me at all times and I write EVERYTHING down which helps, plus I keep all my voicemails and texts and at the end of each day I go through them all again and write down everything I need to write down. I've asked everyone close to me to correct me if I mis-pronounce something, which they do. :-)

I do have friends who don't really see it as a real problem ( because its invisible, and everyone has problems following the lecturers sometimes ertc ), and resent that the items that the uni provides to compensate. I try to use a certain analogy. Basically, if you are hard of hearing, you get a hearing aid. Now it would be nice if everyone got a hearing aid, but the idea is to make the hard of hearing person equal to the person who doesn't have the problem with their hearing. It wont be perfect, but that's what they can do.

( Same with disabled toilets: It would be nice if everyone could have that much space, but non-disabled people can make do whereas the normal loo would be unusable to a wheelchair user if they can't get in the door! )
Ruth
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Post by Ruth »

Hey arthmalow - sorry your folks aren't more understanding. If it helps mine don't get it either but that is hollow comfort isn't it!
I'm like Nick. I've had terible self esteem all my life and it does result I tthink from trying to be a round peg to fit in that round hole when I'm actually a square one. I've always know there was something different and society being what it is that meant wrong. The square peg , round hole image is becoming more and more apt in my mind.


OK. Prepare for a rant. I do this sometimes and then delete it but today I'll let it stand and see what happens.

I've spent my life trying to cover up all the ways in whihc I'm different. Trying to please and to fit in and really never managing it despite my best efforts. I feel like shouting I can't do things your way, stoptrying to make me. I would like to havethe courage to stand and be myself but after so many years of pretending not to be me it's hard. Someone said ' you are what life makes you' and I know now I'm special I like calling it that. It started with llight teasing at uni at exam time and I like it. It helps.

I hate thinking about all the things I carnt do , or at least don'tdo like other people. I just want ti to not be there but it really will never go away will it?

when you're greiving there are these stages aren't there? like denial and anger and then acceptance. If I'm angry now does that mean I'll accept it next? arrgh but I don't wantt it . After a life time of trying to be a round peg I don't want to not be one!!

I'm so confused at the moment. And that scares me because I know that I make mistakes when I'm not completely on the ball. But the reason why it's so bad when I make a mistke is tghat people will see that I'm really not ight, that there is something wromg with me.
but they know bacause I've told them and anyway it's not wrong it's special. It's like I have to un-learn my stongest mental rule - the one that has kept me safe for years. safe but miserable.

Gark! right I think I'm done. I feel all self concious for ranting. please say something nice back!

lol
nick
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Post by nick »

thanks for that ruth, that was a lovely rant. as you know it could have been ranted for me. \:D/ \:D/
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Post by david456 »

The problem with society is that everyone conforms to it. If you stand out for any reason, people don't like it. What people don't understand they attack because of lack of knowledge and education.
It's like reading half a book and writing a review on it. How can you do it without reading the whole story?
I'm mildly Dyspraxic, so I guess I have it easier than most, but I was bullied alot in my youth, but not now. I put myself in situations I found difficult and the more I did it the more confident I became. If I'm not going to get something. It won't be through lack of trying. Hey, I may find it difficult, but If It takes me months to perfect it, i'll do it.
I've learnet never judge a book by it's cover and never formulate an opinion on someone until you really get to know them. I know what it is like to fell isolated and lonely.
Who cares, if you haven't got supermodel looks, doesn't mean you aren't attractive or haven't got a nice personality. Why does everyone have to conform to an ideal. No one is perfect especially me.
Tortoise
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Post by Tortoise »

Its very interesting reading all this. deep stuff!
when you're greiving there are these stages aren't there? like denial and anger and then acceptance. If I'm angry now does that mean I'll accept it next? arrgh but I don't wantt it . After a life time of trying to be a round peg I don't want to not be one!!
When I was reading these accounts about living with a neurological condition all your life and only being diagnosed so late, it really made an impact on me. Its almost liberating being diagnosed but what people forget is that it also starts to change the way you think about yourself (this can be quite positive). It’s almost like an identity crisis! Coming to terms with anything is a huge thing to go through and I don’t think many people realize how exhausting this process is. Friends see us how we are now – they may not realize what it has involved for us to have achieved what we have achieved (I can’t excuse parents though!).

I was diagnosed in my first few years of life as having mild cerebral palsy and my parents were great and understanding. Although I always new I had a motor problem and life had been very challenging, for various reasons I only discovered this “label” when I was in my late teens. This was liberating for me - I now had some point of reference! But even with an early diagnosis, therapy, and a label, I have been met with abuse, experienced an extreme lack of understanding and have come up against many brick walls – the sort of experiences that only you guys would understand. All this really affected my self-esteem! :-({|=

When I finished school I began to come to terms with things… and I felt angry! (and im not usually the angry type!). Not at my disability – I accept the challenges I face. I was upset by the way I had been treated. I was angry that my schooldays were so extremely rough and unfair… I was angry about the anxiety and stress that I had to live through purely because nobody understood me and my disability. I was upset because I felt nobody understood how complex even a “mild” problem can be. (I felt that I would have had more understanding from people if I was suffering from an ingrown toenail). :-({|=

After discovering dyspraxia and learning that others experiences were similar in many respects, I came to see that my difficulties were not my fault and were real and significant; that my experiences do count. Everyone’s story is unique and special and everyone will go through this process in a different way. But I think there is a common underlying theme. I think all of us were somehow liberated by our diagnosis. I think all of us have been grossly misunderstood at some points in our lives because of the hidden nature of our disabilities (I like arthmelow’s analogy!).. I also think that at times people have underestimated the profound impact this sort of disability can have throughout ones life.

It’s a necessary process to go through but you will come out the other end with a big grin on your face!! :D
Gark! right I think I'm done. I feel all self concious for ranting. please say something nice back!
Oh, and by the way Ruth… totally understand! Its so scary doing this isn’t it!?
Ruth
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Post by Ruth »

Thanks guys. Been shy of coming back!

I have been thinking about this alot and I'm going somewhere new with it but I don't have the words yet.

It feels so good to be able to express these things. Thankyou all
Daniel
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Post by Daniel »

This is a really interesting debate!

In my experience it's been people's reactions to you doing things differently to what they're used to that's been the biggest issue. Many people assume that everyone can play frisbee or bowling without thinking about it, and it seems in society quite normal for you to be taunted about such things.

Certainly there are things that I find difficult or can plain not do, or at least not do with any ability. However the problem in my view is being forced into doing things and that quite probably ridiculed due to your lack of ability in trying to do them, and this stems from a lack of understanding. It doesn't help that dyspraxia is very much a hidden disability in that it isn't generally very visible, and a lot of people do make their assumptions based upon visual markers. We're not on crutches or in a wheel chair, so why or earth can't we do everything the same as everyone else tends to be the line of thinking.

At the end of the day, there's a large proportion of the population who do many things in a rather similar way. These are then regarded as the norm, as 'normal' even, as there's strength in numbers. Problems arise for the minority who do things differently, as the majority aren't willing to give acceptance to some people doing things in a different way.

Examining this more deeply, I'm a believer that human nature often defaults to an innate tribal culture, in that most people prefer to associate themselves within groups of similar people, which in its nature creates a mode of thinking involving 'them' and 'us'. Personally I've never been one for groups and so have got used to being outside of the majority of social groupings, and as an adult I can get away with this the majority of the time.

The real problem is in situations such as school where everyone is lumped together and little or no leeway is given for those with differences. As with others my time at school, particular during PE lessons, proved very difficult and troubled at times. It sounds as if schools are improving for students with disabilities, but for us on the whole it seems to be an uphill struggle. Perhaps as much as a square peg in a round whole the metaphor of swimming against the tide could be appropriate.
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