More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

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desertboy
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More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by desertboy »

Ever since finding out about dyspraxia, I have always suspected that involuntary celibacy (i.e. being single not by choice) is more common among dyspraxic males than females.

These are the reasons for my theory.

a) Dyspraxia can be very emasculating for men as several people have mentioned on other posts. The inability to do sports, the lack of physical fitness and ability to do practical jobs makes us unattractive as partners to many if not most neurotypical women.

b) We tend to underperform in our careers. I suspect a large number of neurotypical women want a man who has at least the same earning potential as they have.

c) We tend to lack confidence due to lack of popularity/respect among peers, teachers, employers and parents. It is well-known that lack of confidence tends to be a turn-off for neurotypical women.

d) The above characteristics that dyspraxic males have are IMO more likely to be tolerated by dyspraxic females. If there were an equal number of dyspraxic females as males, there probably would not be so many involuntary celibate (incel) males. However, as the male to female dyspraxia ratio is considered to be approximately 3:1, there is a dyspraxic female for only 1/3 of dyspraxic males. That means 1/2 of dyspraxic males are forced to either be single or try to handle the neurotypical dating market, which many of us are ill-equipped to deal with.

Looking at the posts on this site on relationships seems to confirm this hypothesis. There are an awful lot of male posters writing about being single and a lot of female posters writing about relationship problems with their boyfriends.

I apologise if I have said anything that comes across as sexist. That is not my intention. I also do not mean to imply that female dyspraxics have it easy. I know that many of them have the same problems as us males. Furthermore, I realise that I might be gulty of "the grass is greener on the other side syndrome."

Any comments (agreeing or disagreeing) from both female and male posters would be welcome.
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by Tom fod »

I don't think it necessarily has to be so. In my own case I think I over think the rules and am not relaxed when talking to girl/ladies as too worried about what they think of me I put too much pressure on myself get things wrong/confused and go to pieces!

I'm definitely not a stereotypical male I cannot bear to even watch sport it just not interest me which so many seem to find impossible to comprehend. I'll have a go as long as it's in a relaxed messing about informal game. As soon as people start getting all judgemental about my lack of serious interest/technique. I've tended to hang around with and feel most comfortable with others who feel they are outcasts though I'm luck in that I have a very diverse group of friends. Some of whom who are female and some of whom are sporty. I can be competitive at times but I'm liable to become disheartened/bored early on. Will have a go at DIY and happier to research/work out what needs doing and how and then getting stuck in as long as it's something I feel can be tackled safely.

I'm lucky in that I am well regarded by people who accept and value me for who I am and what I'm good at. Problem is understanding or reaching an understanding with the type of women I fancy. Mostly I only seem to end up stuck in the friend zone so maybe it's just a case of I just haven't met the right one/been chosen and also that maybe I'm a bit too choosy myself. I do have difficulty with the what will she think of me what do I do aarrrggghhhh!
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Jim
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by Jim »

I do kind of see where you're coming from desertboy.

I myself am "involuntary celibate". I do not fit well within society and some of my Dyspraxic difficulties do result in me being rather unsociable and might cast me outside the societal view of a typical average "bloke".

I'm not interest in pop culture, I hate football, I'm not particularly sporty (except for motor racing), I'm not into fashion and I avoid the normal popular social activities. Some of this is a result of my Dyspraxia. I.e my speech difficulty, my difficulty in dealing with noise, the fact that I appear a bit odd... It all certainly affects my confidence.

BUT is that simply me being too self conscious? Am I simply second guessing things too much?

In reality I think it's as much to do with actual personality as it is to do with any disability, although admittedly personality is to an extent moulded by ability.
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Captain_Ludd
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by Captain_Ludd »

Yeah I do think you have a point on this one their are a lot more dyspraxic men and they do tend to be single whether by choice or otherwise.
I think a lot of it comes down to what Jim says I think its fair to say that because of our difficulties we do tend not to come across as "blokey bloke" and more as the "Odd ball" which for all their protestations of being interested in sensitive men I think a lot of women do want.(Sorry if this comes across as little bit of a sexist generalisation, but that's my personal experience)
Having said this I don't think its all about being women wanting Mr Macho man a lot of it is self confidence, well more being comfortable with yourself, which I never was around a women I was actively trying to impress (didn't happen very often and was normally after several whiskies :) ).
This coupled with the fact that I'm not exactly what you'd call conventionally attractive and my limited experience of being in relationships turned out to be a nightmare made me realise that life is much simpler when you decide to take the whole relationships thing out of the equation.
Also an unexpected down side of being dyspraxic for me is my in ability to read body language has meant there have been occasions when I've been told people have been flirting with me and I had no clue !
As to a dyspraxic man being better off with a dyspraxic women I cant entirely comment cos I've never met a dyspraxic women but I can see it going one of two ways either getting on like a house on fire or driving each other mad :) .
desertboy
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by desertboy »

Thank you for your intersting comments, Tom Fod, Jim and Captain Ludd.

I definitely have been in Involuntary Celibate (aka Incel) and/or Love Shy most of my adult life. Incel and Love Shy are similar conditions, but there is a subtle difference. The former implies that the sufferer has the confidence to look for romance but is constantly rejected, while the latter implies lack of success due to not having the confidence to approach people. Of course the dvision between the two syndromes is a very fine one. I suspect that it sounds as if the three of you are perhaps more love shy than incel. I think I am in the same boat, too. If you are interested in finding out more, each of these conditions has a support group.

http://incel.myonlineplace.org/forum/

http://www.love-shy.com

Tom, I can truly relate to the feeling of being stuck in the 'friendzone.' Actually, I consider myself lucky to even be put there by women. More often than not, I'm put in the "Loser/Creep/Freak Zone!". I'm also guilty of having 'standards'. Standards that I may hasten to add are well beyond my buying power. I'm a bit like a car shopper who looks admiringly at the new Ferraris, would settle happily for a two year old Ford or Volkswagen, but only has the money for a Reliant Robin.

Jim, you raised a great question as to what extent personality is moulded by ability. I am sure that without dyspraxia, I would have lived in a different world. I may not have been a member of the in crowd, but I would have grown up into a much more respected person who would have been invited to many more places etc. I certainly would have had a much more optimistic and less misanthropic outlook on life. Therefore, I'm sure I would have grown into a completely different person without dyspraxia.

Captain Ludd, despite what the pick up artist's say, I don't think sane neurotypical women want some ostentatiously cocksure alphamale. I would say that they prefer a quietly confident, competent and strong man. You made a great point about whether "dyspraxic males and females would get on like a house on fire or drive each other mad." I'm still thinking about that one. I suppose it depends on the symptoms that the dyspraxic individuals show.

I think all of you mentioned looks as being an important issue, too. I admit that I lost out on the genetic lottery in this area. I have a very narrow unsymmetrical face, a narrow weak chin, very little hair and a concord like nose. I also have a poor bone structure with 6 inch wrists and shoulders that are narrower than most women's. Definitely an Omega male, in terms of physique.


On a final point, I will be moving in with a neurotypical woman next month, so my incel days are over for the immediate future. However, I must say that I half expect to be thrown out within a few weeks because this woman outclasses me in every way that I can think of. If you're interested, I'll let you know more down the line.
Last edited by desertboy on Sat May 25, 2013 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Jim
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by Jim »

I'm not so sure about the macho side of the discussion but I think in general who ever you are, whatever sex, age, faith, disability.. people tend to find people who are confident and sociable (whilst not being over bearing) attractive.

Oh for sure everyone dreams of poster pin-up looks but that isn't really realistic. Society and pop culture creates an idealism which for isn't really achievable for well anyone.

My main problem is that I'm a lot less sociable than the average person in society. Largely because I find people stressful. But when I do socialise I struggle to get a word in edgeways due to my speech difficulty and my very slight attention trouble (hearing everything at once without being able to focus on one voice).

Now, I'm no vegetable. I have some intelligence, skills, some good sense and a dry sense of humour and I can build an argument in a debate as well as anyone (given a suitable audience). But I do struggle to articulate all that together and I'm either ever so slightly unnoticeable because others command the attention or worse occasionally I'm actually the centre of attention because someone has picked up on my slight ditziness and decided to mock me for it.

I'm fine with general banter and can give as good as I get, but it can be uncomfortable if it hits on things which I can't help, like my speech for example. But even so, I'd still stop short of citing my Dyspraxia as the ultimate culprit in my celibacy. I think it's mostly because I simply do not socialise enough and am too self conscious.
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desertboy
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by desertboy »

Yesterday, I found out about the website for adults with learning difficulties. It's called Stars in the Sky.

www.starsinthesky.co.uk


Do any members of this website have experience of using this dating agency, or know someone who has used it?

Maybe this question needs a new thread. :)
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by Creative »

This dating agency was used in the tv series The Undateables.
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by AlleyCat »

Yes, I also noticed that the Stars in the Sky dating agency was featured in the Undateables series. However, I don't think it's appropriate for the great majority of people with dyspraxia to use this kind of agency. The reason is that the vast majority of cases the agency deals with seem to be people who have an obvious degree of intellectual disability- as most people with dyspraxia are not disabled intellectually, it would not be right for us to date someone who was, as we could of course be perceived to be taking advantage of a vulnerable adult (the most obvious examples are someone with quite severe autism or someone with down syndrome).
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by Jim »

It does seem to be intended for people with what you may consider more far fetching degrees of disability. To join you are required to provide a reference, (a refrence of what I'm not sure as I didn't investigate too far).

But I did quickly conclude that It would inappropriate for someome as relatively independent as myself to join as some has pointed out many of these people could be quite vulnerable.
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desertboy
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by desertboy »

Yes, I watched one of the programs. The main characters did seem quite severely disabled though some of the people they were introduced to by the dating agency seemed relatively normal (described as having a slight learning difficulty). I imagine the agency would probably be careful to match up people with appropriate levels of disability. But I might be wrong.

If that is the case, I suppose there is definitely a place for an Autistic Spectrum Disorder dating club. Of course, there would probably be a lot more male than female members but it would at least be a start.
Wayward
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by Wayward »

As a dyspraxic female, I'd like to chime in here :)

You make a good argument desertboy, but here's the female dyspraxic's side of things (obviously this doesn't apply to all dyspraxic women)

* High heels. A lot of women wear them to look sophisticated, 'dressy' and sexy. Dyspraxia, for a lot of women I'd imagine, makes wearing high heels quite a no-no - they're tricky enough to walk in when you don't have co-ordination problems let alone when you have a tendency to trip over thin air!
* Hair and make-up - ditto, a common difficulty for dyspraxic ladies that can mean we look less coiffed than other girls, and a lot of men expect high-ish standards of grooming.
* Noisy enviroments - failing to compete on quite the same level as non-dyspraxic ladies as far as fashion and cosmetics go, we then have to contend with potential difficulty with chatting to guys in pubs and clubs due to all the noise!
* Spilling food and drink - not exactly sexy for men either, but women are often particularly expected to be graceful and there's nothing graceful-looking about spilling your drink down your front or having to pick pastry crumbs out of your hair!
* General clumsiness and lack of co-ordination - I can't be the only dyspraxic woman who feels horrified at the idea of trying to attract a man on the dancefloor...

Generally speaking, a lot of the typical ways to meet a partner aren't dyspraxic-friendly for either gender I think...but there are different sorts of difficulties on each side right from the start.

I was single until I was nearly 31 (met my current boyfriend on an internet dating site) so I would say most of my life I've been 'incel'/loveshy
I definitely agree about the confidence issues being a huge factor for dyspraxics - male or female.
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by Jim »

That's a brilliant post wayward. You've applied a good deal of intelligence here with a massive dose of realism. And I think you've shown that attracting relations is difficult for Dyspraxics which ever gender you happen to be.

Your story about about being single until 31 gives me hope too... Although you must be "sexier" than you think because I'm a complete gimp ;)
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That's amore” :whistle:
Wayward
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by Wayward »

Thanks Jim :)
Weeeell sexiness is pretty subjective!
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Re: More Involuntary Celibate Dyspraxic Males than Females?

Post by always_elan »

" Incel and Love Shy are similar conditions, but there is a subtle difference. The former implies that the sufferer has the confidence to look for romance but is constantly rejected, while the latter implies lack of success due to not having the confidence to approach people."
I'm 53 and have been on my own for far too long. I was married for 17 years, and dated after the marriage broke down, but since moving to Devon years ago (too depressing to say how many!) have not had any relationships at all.

I am enormously grateful to you for mentioning the 'Love Shy' condition, I think there's a good chance that some lovely men have been interested in me, but I was too scared to encourage them (partly due to a previous disastrous relationship with an emotionally abusive man - not my ex-husband). Many times I've bitterly regretted missing the chances of possible relationships, hearing of this condition both makes me realise that I'm not the only one who - reluctantly - avoids romance, and that it is an actual syndrome. It's a bit unfair to the guys as well, if I'm right in thinking they liked me in that way. They would drop hints, but with low self-esteem etc I needed them to stand in front of me and, like a teenager, say 'I want to go out with you'! I need to remember that it can take a lot of courage to even drop a hint to someone (whatever age you are), if I encourage them and turn out to be wrong, it doesn't really matter does it? For I'm sure it's always nice to know that someone finds you attractive (personality I mean, more than anything else) even if you don't feel the same.

One of the 'etcs' is a major fear of rejection. So I, too, finished the few relationships I had before they had a chance to finish with me. I want to overcome this - it stops me entering a relationship in the first place, makes me insecure during it and end possibly sooner than I might have otherwise done.

I haven't been able to come on this site for a while, but once again, it's an enormous help to me.
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