Rubric regaring examinations

[arthmelow]

I don't know why I get interested in all this sort of stuff... but below is a link to the QCA guidelines for adjustments in assessments ( for physical and learning disabilities ). QCA cover all of the exam boards, so it would be for any assessment from A Levels and GCSEs to Key Skills, Entry Level Qualifications and City and Guilds qualifications ( the last one I'm not entirely sure on, but if they aren't covered they still have a similiar document for their own purposes ).

< link removed due to request

or something smaller ( the above is mainly there to show that I'm not linking to pron or a page that will download a trojan or something):

http://tinyurl.com/a2kxe

Pages 68-72: profile of learning difficulties

Something I found rather odd is that the examination boards only want to know about is whether the learning disability puts the reading/writing skills below the 16th percentile ( ie 84% of the population gets a higher standard on reading/writing ).

This doesn't assist people like me who use compensatory techniques to read words: ie because my voucabulary is a lot higher than average anyway I can just read the normal ones from memory - my reading difficulty only shows when reading nonsense words that require phonetic decoding ( ie real reading that you learn in infant school ), or reading out loud tends to completely destroy my comprehension skills. ( on an unrelated note my fine motor skills varied between 7th and 1st percentile, which is rather scary )

Also 16th percentile is a bit drastic: if you were cutting off at the 16th percentile in IQ terms, you would be cutting off at the 84-85 mark ( on Weschler scale, Cattell would be even lower 70ish ). So to be flippant about it, they would only consider if you were less than the equilivent of Forest Gump.

For people who managed to get diagnosed before leaving compulsory education, what examination provisions did you get? Did you consider them adequate or otherwise?

[jme]

Somehow I don’t think you can compare a percentile ranking on a very specific subset (for example reading speed) in the same terms as an IQ score. It’s a bit like trying to compare a score from a football match with a score from a cricket match. I think they are telling a different story. For example just because you have fine motor skills in the 1st -7th percentile (which is far below the 16th percentile!) doesn’t mean you are the equivalent of Christy Brown (from My Left Foot)!! I’m no expert though – I could be wrong/confused!

Technicalities aside, I get what you mean. Sometimes I feel that forms like this don’t always capture the difficulties that dyspraxics et al (;)) have. People with dyspraxia may be great readers and great writers and good at maths, but dyspraxia plays havoc with getting essays organised and written in short amounts of time (for example)!! And I know from experience that the degree to which I am able to compensate is always totally overlooked.

It’s quite interesting you brought this up because I’ve been really confused about the classification of DCD (dyspraxia). Most people on the boards refer to it as a learning difficulty/disability/disorder/difference (covering all bases here!). However, I have a book that contains snippets of the DSM-IV and DCD does not seem to be included under the classification heading of ‘learning disorder’! Did anyone know this? DCD is classified as a ‘motor skills disorder’. According to the DSM-IV, Learning disorders include: “reading disorder, mathematics disorder, or disorder of written expression”. I dunno! I find the categorising of things really confusing.. for example i have a motor problem as well and it is very similar to DCD, but my diagnosis of cp puts me in the category of 'physical disability'. anyway, I think the associated symptoms of these things are often overlooked. does anyone understand how dyspraxia is categorised??

Anyway, to answer your question,- for my final year at school, they gave me 10mins extra per hour, but if I used a computer (which I had to use for subjects that involved essays) I did not get any extra time! (can you believe this!? . Getting these provisions was like drawing blood from a stone and my application was rejected three times (and this is with a diagnosis of cp!). For uni they were less stupid and gave me the 10mins/hr regardless of whether I wrote or typed. However I think the UK system is more fair and understanding.

For those of you from the UK, you might find it interesting to see how the systems in other countries differ. This is a story that I can well relate to.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/ ... m=storyrhs

[arthmelow]

Somehow I don’t think you can compare a percentile ranking on a very specific subset (for example reading speed) in the same terms as an IQ score. It’s a bit like trying to compare a score from a football match with a score from a cricket match. I think they are telling a different story. For example just because you have fine motor skills in the 1st -7th percentile (which is far below the 16th percentile!) doesn’t mean you are the equivalent of Christy Brown (from My Left Foot)!! I’m no expert though – I could be wrong/confused!

Tired... was stretching an idea for effect... didn't come out right. Ah well.

It’s quite interesting you brought this up because I’ve been really confused about the classification of DCD (dyspraxia). Most people on the boards refer to it as a learning difficulty/disability/disorder/difference (covering all bases here!). However, I have a book that contains snippets of the DSM-IV and DCD does not seem to be included under the classification heading of ‘learning disorder’! Did anyone know this? DCD is classified as a ‘motor skills disorder’. According to the DSM-IV, Learning disorders include: “reading disorder, mathematics disorder, or disorder of written expression”. I dunno! I find the categorising of things really confusing.. for example i have a motor problem as well and it is very similar to DCD, but my diagnosis of cp puts me in the category of 'physical disability'. anyway, I think the associated symptoms of these things are often overlooked. does anyone understand how dyspraxia is categorised??

ICD 10 ( most recent ) : ( pasted, source wiki )
(F82) Specific developmental disorder of motor function
Developmental dyspraxia

ICD 9 ( published 1977) : 315.4 Specific delays in development
Excludes:
that due to a neurological disorder (320.0-389.9)

They only seem to refer to the *development* of a person rather than adulthood, suggesting that the problem is not significant in adulthood. This seems misleading. Plus I was on the understanding that dyspraxia
*was* a neurological disorder... this seems to have shattered that as well. It is possible that they have only classified the parts of dyspraxia that the majority of researchers agree on.

http://www.dyspraxiafoundation.org.uk/p ... rs_ajr.php
This suggests that dyspraxia/dyslexia and aspergers are related in their causes in some way, but since the study does not focus on this, I'll keep reading and see if I find any more like this.

Anyway, to answer your question,- for my final year at school, they gave me 10mins extra per hour, but if I used a computer (which I had to use for subjects that involved essays) I did not get any extra time! (can you believe this!? . Getting these provisions was like drawing blood from a stone and my application was rejected three times (and this is with a diagnosis of cp!). For uni they were less stupid and gave me the 10mins/hr regardless of whether I wrote or typed. However I think the UK system is more fair and understanding.

For those of you from the UK, you might find it interesting to see how the systems in other countries differ. This is a story that I can well relate to.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/ ... m=storyrhs

Since 2004 employers and educational establishments in the UK have had to adhere and obey the new Disability Discrimination Act, which does include dyspraxia and dyslexia. The difficulty is getting diagnosed - the first barrier is ignorance. People do not know that you can get diagnosed for free if you are in full time education, or they do not know that learning disorders exist, or they do not believe that it is worth it getting diagnosed. The child/teen can often feel embarassed and therefore will refuse possible help for fear of looking "dumb" or "special needs". They do not know that with diagnosis they will be legally protected from discrimination by the law in their educational establishment and in the future, their employer no matter how small the business is.

I'm afraid I have no sources on this, but I read somewhere that approximately 60-80% of young offenders in prisons suffer from some kind of learning disorder, dyspraxia included. Almost all of them have not not been recognised or diagnosed. The trick here is to have one understanding teacher to *get* the diagnosis in the first place and if you move schools to question the new school and make sure they know so they can provide any help they have.

The situation in aus you have provided a link to is possibly an indication that in the UK we really should take our position for granted. Its usually ok once you get the diagnosis and you persist to tell enough people to make sure that the provisions take place - but this seems limited to people with smart enough ( read here middle class and resourceful ) parents or a lucky dip in having a teacher or family friend who recognises it.

I know in the US dyspraxia is often mis-understood to be nonverbal learning disorder ( which does not have an ICD code ) and the definitions of dyspraxia I can find from US sites seem to refer to verbal dyspraxia ( apraxia ) rather than the definition that exists in the UK. I have no idea what support is available in the US, however I do remember it depends on what State you reside in.

[jme]

Tired... was stretching an idea for effect... didn't come out right. Ah well.

Nah, I new exactly what you meant… but was just correcting anyway (sorry if I sounded a bit anal )

They only seem to refer to the *development* of a person rather than adulthood, suggesting that the problem is not significant in adulthood. This seems misleading.

It’s a bit confusing because when they say “developmental” I think it actually means development across the life span. It implies that dyspraxia is something you are born with and have all your life. This is in contrast with “acquired” which means that you acquired a disability later in life, through a brain injury (for example).

I understand why you thought developmental means relating to a child. Most developmental psychologists are child psychologist. Most people don’t know that developmental psychologists are meant to know about development across the life span… so from birth onwards. In fact there are some developmental psychologists who specialise in geriatrics!

Plus I was on the understanding that dyspraxia
*was* a neurological disorder... this seems to have shattered that as well.

Strange hey!!

It is possible that they have only classified the parts of dyspraxia that the majority of researchers agree on.

That sounds about right I find all this classification stuff really confusing.

[Greg]

arthmelow, can you edit your origional post to break the long link in half? This conversation is very difficult to read because I'm having to side scroll after each line. I feel a bit dizzy now :P

When I was diagnosed (UK) I got the ability to use a comptuer in the exam. Extra time was figured by comparing my type-speed to my write-speed and giving me extra time proportional to that.

At the time my type-speed was about 10% slower so I got 10% extra time. This seemed reasonable to me at the time, since as I understood it this was just about my handwriting being unreadable - other issues such as organisation etc. were just me making a mess of things.

Now I'm at uni and I get the computer in exams and extra time no questions asked. They even spent £2000 to buy me a computer and some other kit (dictaphone for notes etc) to help me get through uni with this. I didn't ask for the latter and was very pleasantly suprised.

Also my type speed is considerably faster than my write speed these days. I only handwrite a paragraph a week or so :P

As a psychology student I can say with absolute certainty that trying to get a roomfull of psychologists (much less an institution) to agree on how to classify anything (is a jaffa cake a cake?) is like pulling teeth ;)[/url]

[arthmelow]

arthmelow, can you edit your origional post to break the long link in half? This conversation is very difficult to read because I'm having to side scroll after each line. I feel a bit dizzy now

I don't quite know how the forum does line brakes. On my compy it comes up as two lines, so I didn't know there was a problem. sorry

When I was diagnosed (UK) I got the ability to use a comptuer in the exam. Extra time was figured by comparing my type-speed to my write-speed and giving me extra time proportional to that.

At the time my type-speed was about 10% slower so I got 10% extra time. This seemed reasonable to me at the time, since as I understood it this was just about my handwriting being unreadable - other issues such as organisation etc. were just me making a mess of things.

Now I'm at uni and I get the computer in exams and extra time no questions asked. They even spent £2000 to buy me a computer and some other kit (dictaphone for notes etc) to help me get through uni with this. I didn't ask for the latter and was very pleasantly suprised.

Also my type speed is considerably faster than my write speed these days. I only handwrite a paragraph a week or so

As a psychology student I can say with absolute certainty that trying to get a roomfull of psychologists (much less an institution) to agree on how to classify anything (is a jaffa cake a cake?) is like pulling teeth [/url]

1. Jaffa cakes are cakes. When biscuits go stale, they go soft. Then cakes go stale, they harden. Jaffa cakes harden.

2. I now get extra time, but I don't get the use of a computer. And in my subject it is slightly pointless because mechanisms and formulae do not translate well when typing ( Chemistry ).

3. It doesn't help that the US seem to have their own naming system for learning disorders ( which do not have ICD codes according to wiki ) so in the US you can be diagnosed with a learning disorder that isn't recognised in the rest of the world.

[Greg]

I was about to say that it was fine now I'm useing firefox and blame microsoft for everything, but then I noticed you'd deleted the link. I don't mind side-scrolling if it'd help someone to have the link, complete information is more important than easy-reading (gee you can already see the psych in me :P) I meant just break it up by hitting enter in the middle as in:
http://www.some
thing.com
I'm sure folks can manage to combine the two without having an easily clickable link :P Hmm, does this forum allow HTML in posts. Could hyperlink it in a snazzy fashion ;)

I know they're cakes and you know they're cakes, but a room full of psychs would argue over whether it's possible for it to be aware that it's a cake or somesuch :P

It's really annoying computer help doesn't extend to some subjects. I had an exam involving a lot of diagram drawing recently. I could have done it in any image editing package going (hell I could do it in MSPaint if needed) but no, I had to do it on paper. Good luck to whoever has to translate that into English.

Is the situation in the US just that they use DSM-IV while other countries use ICD-10 or is it more complicated than that? I've never really encountered how the US handles mental health before.[/url]

[Ruth]

blimey don't understand half of that!! going to insert my four pennuth' though.

I was never considered to have difficulties at school because I came out as average or above average for everything. Not below the 16% centile.

Is ti fair for me to havehelp in order to function to the best of mt abilities - yes I think it is. It shouldn't matter or count against me that I have a high I.Q. I once joined Mensa - in hind sight a mistke, IQ of 178... can't skip or do shoe laces how to make a girl feel bad.

I have trouble keeping in my mind what dyspraxia is , I feel it's kind of my duty to educate folk about it. It doesn't help that i think i'm very mild autististic and I do have some teuretts type difficulties.

Anyway not sure what I'm saying just wanted to join in. Sorry?

[Greg]

Sorry for what? It's a public forum, if it were part of the "no-ruth-club" we'd have PMd the whole thing :P

I'm not sure how I feel about high-functioning folks with this sort of problem (I guess that'd include me) I mean dyspraxia is something we had no control over, but so is being born with less intellectual potential (genetics, socioeconomic status, whatever) or anything else that'd put a person behind. So I'm never sure why some things are treated as 'problems beyond our control we need help with' and others are 'bad luck mate'

In a way I feel a little guilty getting a £2000 computer - even though I would never have got through uni without it I can't help but think that the same money applied to someone somewhere else might have been the difference between a life on the streets and some sort of gainfull employment. In a way a test of overall capabiltity for determining who recieves help seems kinda fair, if people have the capacity to comphensate for their weaknesses shouldn't we be helping those who don't first?

I still took the computer though :(

Why should being bad at something mitigate good feelings for being good at something else. The real questions you should be asking is "how much good can I do with this potent ol brain of mine" and "how much evil is a lack of tied shoelaces likely to spread" I know which way I think the net influence will go :P

[arthmelow]

I was about to say that it was fine now I'm useing firefox and blame microsoft for everything, but then I noticed you'd deleted the link. I don't mind side-scrolling if it'd help someone to have the link, complete information is more important than easy-reading (gee you can already see the psych in me ) I meant just break it up by hitting enter in the middle as in:
http://www.some
thing.com
I'm sure folks can manage to combine the two without having an easily clickable link Hmm, does this forum allow HTML in posts. Could hyperlink it in a snazzy fashion

The same link is below, just its a signpost to the actual link ( the tinyurl one ). Click on that and you'll go to the link I pasted in full.

Is the situation in the US just that they use DSM-IV while other countries use ICD-10 or is it more complicated than that? I've never really encountered how the US handles mental health before.[/url]

ICD is used by the World Health Organisation. It covers all illnesses, whether mental or psychlogical. the latest ICD ( 10 ) uses the term dyspraxia.

DSM is American ( well united statesian, if there is such a word ). It only covers psychological disorders. The latest version of the DSM uses the phrase "Developmental Coordination Disorder" for dyspraxia.

[arthmelow]

blimey don't understand half of that!! going to insert my four pennuth' though.

It's me, rambling at 3-4am. People don't understand me not because they can't work it out, but rather that I don't make much sense.

I was never considered to have difficulties at school because I came out as average or above average for everything. Not below the 16% centile.

Is ti fair for me to havehelp in order to function to the best of mt abilities - yes I think it is. It shouldn't matter or count against me that I have a high I.Q. I once joined Mensa - in hind sight a mistke, IQ of 178... can't skip or do shoe laces how to make a girl feel bad.

I have trouble keeping in my mind what dyspraxia is , I feel it's kind of my duty to educate folk about it. It doesn't help that i think i'm very mild autististic and I do have some teuretts type difficulties.

Anyway not sure what I'm saying just wanted to join in. Sorry?

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Both you and I ( and possibly many others here ) have focused on getting better at the bits we are not good at, meaning that at worst we perform at an average level. Why should the examiners reward people who have been too arrogant ( or otherwise ) to have not have focused on their compensation skills? Why should they only help the people who are of average or below average intelligence, or at least are currently performing at that level?

I'm certainly not as smart as you. But I know at school I focussed on the skills I didn't already have, so I did not come under any radar for being different or requiring a special needs statement. My brother, due to sheer fate (another story, another day), ended up on the special needs statement whereas I did not. My eccentrities were seen as personality, whereas his were documented and seen as things to "develop" or "remedy". My brother is intelligent, but his dominant intelligence seems to be artistic rather than logical-mathematical or verbal-reasoning, meaning that he was never going to be seen as "normal" under such scruntiny in conventional schooling.

Ok. Rambling again. *Focus*.

Basically, if you could do the 2+2=? and write good projects about the Ancient Greeks, people don't really notice learning disorders. However as soon as that person is no longer performing as well, reasons are investigated and *then* your personality suddenly comes under scruntiny. However if this happens too soon, much of it is dismissed as teenage rebellion.

[jme]

wow! fantasitc, this conversation is certainly taking off!

I am really interested in this topic of compensation skills not being taken into consideration - or being completely overlooked. As someone who has mild cerebral palsy as well as dyspraxia, my problem has been known from a very early age. However, like you guys, I am able to perform quite well academically and have excellent compensation skills. This has meant that for most of my schooling I was doing very well without any help whatsoever (e.g, extra time in exams). Other students who had less significant disabilities but who were not performing well academically got a lot of help at school. In my final years at school I applied for extra time to do exams and despite support from a pediatric neurologist, my school teachers found this unfair. THeir argument was that I did too well, and as such should not recieve extra time for exams. On the other hand, the people involved in my medial problems felt i was at a disadvantage because it is difficult, tiring, effortful and slow for me to write. It also takes me longer to organise essays etc. I am certainly not at an advantage physically speaking!!

i have spent 10 years of my life (from the age of 2 (and a bit) till 12) having intensive physiotherapy to improve my skills (and generally working my butt off at everything!). As a result i am able to componsate very well, so people aren't so aware of my difficulties. but why should i be disadvantaged because of this?

I have to disagree with what Greg wrote here

In a way a test of overall capabiltity for determining who recieves help seems kinda fair, if people have the capacity to comphensate for their weaknesses shouldn't we be helping those who don't first?

I think in some critical circumstances this might apply, but if you are talking in terms of education I have to disagree. Everyone has the right to fulfill thier academic potential. In countries like UK, USA, AUST etc, I think it is very easy for people like us to be accomodated for. Not only is there an emphasis in these countries on remediation, but there is also an emphasis on enrichment programs. These countries are trying to meet the needs of students of all academic abilities. I dont think giving me 5mins/half hour in exams was going to make my school go bankrupt. It is an issue of discrimination. Hyperthetically, why should someone with dyspraxia who doesnt do well academically be given help, but someone with dyspraxia who does well academically not be given help?

I think everyone should be able to fulfill their potential. All I recieve is extra time for exams - its not a big deal. Having this provision has helped me achieve my potential and it would be personally devastating if i was not given this oportunity. In the scheme of things, dyspraxia is no big deal, and the help we need is not all that complicated. but if we are not properly accomodated for or even dismissed, a little thing can snowball into a huge problem.

[Greg]

I've got to go and see the mother-unit in 20mins so I'll try to be brief (for me). Sorry to pull a runner just as things are getting interesting but I might be away for a few days.

In an ideal world everyone gets the help that they need to perform at their optimum levels. Nobody is handicapped by anything not of their own creation so everyone gets an equal shot.

However this is not an ideal world. It seems perverse to me that we see some things as disabilities and not others. If something is not your fault and it affects your academic performance why isn't it taken into account? Why does a specific learning disorder have more weight in these circumstances than having less intellectual potential? (genetic, socioeconomic, however you think such potential is defined)

Assesments are supposed to be based on your own performance, but we all know that in the real world the performance of your peers is equally relevant. If everyone does badly the marks get moderated up and vice-versa. So I wonder if providing comphensatory help for some people and not others isn't compacting the problem for those whos situation is not recognised in the way that is meaningfull in our society.

With regards to two people with the same problem (dyspraxia or otherwise) being treated differently, it's a limited rescources issue. No problem with extra time, there is an infinate amount of extra time to give out. However when we're talking about finite rescources (the need for a seperate room & envigilator, a computer to do an exam on, etc) then it's only possible to help so many people.

My preference would be for helping the people who were doing the worst first. It seems logical to me that it's better to help someone who will otherwise flounder and never manage much achieve enough to get them into a steady job than it is to help someone who could already achieve a livable amount reach their full potential. If not everyone is going to reach their potential the focus has to be on making sure everyone has a liveable situation rather than trying to make sure that some are able to generate an elite.

Now of course there's an argument for rescource efficieny. In our case it's often a situation where a small allowance can make a large difference. In that issue it makes sense to allocate rescources where they'd be most efficient first - however my point was within our group rather than between our group and other groups. I think given how little it can take for one of us to achieve a lot it would probably be acceptable to allocate rescources to a group of us over helping one person in a worse situation. It still rankles a bit though.

I'm not ungreatfull for the help I've recieved. Nor do I doubt that without it I probably wouldn't be looking at the possibility of a masters/PhD and then who knows what else. However I think that if I'd been in charge I probably would have chosen to help someone else instead of me.

I'm probably repeating myself in an effort to be quick and get this done before I gotta leave. Core point: In an ideal world everyone gets help. We've only got limited rescources so help the people who aren't capable of comphensating/helping themselves in some way first.

[Greg]

I'm such a liar.
That wasn't even remotely breif.

[jme]

--well you will have no trouble getting a word count going for your PhD!!--
I think you actually are discussing many different issues in your post. I’m not too sure what we are discussing at the moment but ill just go with it! It seems like you are discussing a worse case scenario situation. Like if you were trapped on a deserted island who, would you help first?!!! So, yes, others are a lot worse off for various reasons that may not come under the disability category and who might benifit from exam provisions. However, In some cases the university does take this into consideration. No, its not an ideal world. Yes, it would be nice if everyone got help. (These are slightly more global issues!). If we were discussing worse case scenarios or something I might come up with a similar response to you. The only accommodation I got was extra time – most people have no problem at all with this, but on one event I have come across a very ignorant and discriminatory attitude. It is this sort of attitude that I have a problem with. My main issue is with discrimination… not anything tangible, or of monetary value, or anything that will take resources away from anyone more needy.

So I think some of what you are saying is a bit far fetched. In what I am talking about anyway there is no limited resource issue, funding issue, priority issue, its simple discrimation. I had no problems at university with being accommodated for and I am not complaining. Where I live there is no allowance for students with disabilities, no free computers, no anything really except extra time for exams - so I am not really discussing this - (yes, boo hoo, poor me ). I know that others are worse off and respect that. I do not expect anything from anyone else. What I do not accept is blatant ignorance and discrimination. I am not going to sit back and say, “Oh well, I wont fight for my rights because others are starving in Africa and joe down the road just had a bad divorce” (ok, you didn’t say that, I am exaggerating, but you get my drift). Not that this is an issue for me right now - I am finished with uni and that was all fine! (so im not too sure what I am discussing right now!). lol (but its fun anyway )

However this is not an ideal world. It seems perverse to me that we see some things as disabilities and not others. If something is not your fault and it affects your academic performance why isn't it taken into account?

There is something called “special consideration” forms at uni that does try and take serious misadventures into account.

Why does a specific learning disorder have more weight in these circumstances than having less intellectual potential? (genetic, socioeconomic, however you think such potential is defined).

Circumstances like having less intellectual potential is randomly distributed in the population: - that includes people with all types of disabilities. . So that’s that variable accounted for.

I wasnt able to follow all your points, but interesting anyway!!

I'm trying to get posts in before i start work - i dont think i will have a lot of free time then!!