Dyspraxia for hunter gatherer people

A place to talk about your experience of living with Dyspraxia

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Mr_Tom_one
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Dyspraxia for hunter gatherer people

Post by Mr_Tom_one »

Not sure if this has been covered on here before...

Was just thinking, I've been watching lots of Ray Mears survival programmes recently and often he lives with people leading very simple lives, relying on nature to provide for them. I'm not diagnosed as dyspraxic but it seems a very good fit for me, and when I think about my relative strengths they wouldn't be totally useless to people living in this way.

For example, I'm a good visual thinker and problem solver, and a lot of survival techniques involve using limited things in new ways, for example using sticks or bamboo in a certain setup to hold a cooking pot over a fire. Also, I have a good visual memory, so I'd be able to remember what plants were safe and help find the way around when looking for food. In addition having good empathy (I think) I'd be a helpful member of a team when going out hunting, not arguing and also helping to solve other people's arguments. None of my problems with admin and multitasking would really be an issue. Of course I wouldn't be the one chosen to sneak up on an animal and try to spear it, or climb a tree to get something from the top, but I might be a helpful person to have along all the same.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting idea. I feel like today's world of admin, multitasking, working with the public under pressure, having interviews etc. is designed by people to be extra difficult for me to navigate, as far as jobs are concerned anyway!!
ssuma
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Re: Dyspraxia for hunter gatherer people

Post by ssuma »

Mr_Tom_one wrote:Not sure if this has been covered on here before...

Was just thinking, I've been watching lots of Ray Mears survival programmes recently and often he lives with people leading very simple lives, relying on nature to provide for them. I'm not diagnosed as dyspraxic but it seems a very good fit for me, and when I think about my relative strengths they wouldn't be totally useless to people living in this way.

For example, I'm a good visual thinker and problem solver, and a lot of survival techniques involve using limited things in new ways, for example using sticks or bamboo in a certain setup to hold a cooking pot over a fire. Also, I have a good visual memory, so I'd be able to remember what plants were safe and help find the way around when looking for food. In addition having good empathy (I think) I'd be a helpful member of a team when going out hunting, not arguing and also helping to solve other people's arguments. None of my problems with admin and multitasking would really be an issue. Of course I wouldn't be the one chosen to sneak up on an animal and try to spear it, or climb a tree to get something from the top, but I might be a helpful person to have along all the same.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting idea. I feel like today's world of admin, multitasking, working with the public under pressure, having interviews etc. is designed by people to be extra difficult for me to navigate, as far as jobs are concerned anyway!!
I totally agree with you and so glad that others notice this too. I too think many supposed cognitive disability would not been a disability in the past, and could even be advantageous and that is why so many of us still have genes that kept those trait. IMO, the advent of standardized education, industrial revolution...etc while improve the quality of life for many people, also creates a lot of problems. In other words, we humans constantly created niches that benefits some and caused problems to some. I am not trying to argue whether having learn disability make you less evolved or more evolved, but just that such mechanism existed and it is potentially destroying the gene pool of humanity. We don't know what will happened in the future, and we potentially need some of the genes that is currently being selected against, hence, assuming our genepool is the tool kit for humanity and by being indifferent to mechanisms like the one you and I mentioned, it is actually very detrimental to the human race in the long run. Specifically, it limits our genetic arsenal , making humanity more susceptible to the forces of nature in the future.

On a side note, as an aspiring archaeologist, one of my many goals is to find evidence in the archaeological record and prove to the world that this theory is true! Wish me luck. :)
Mr_Tom_one
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Re: Dyspraxia for hunter gatherer people

Post by Mr_Tom_one »

So interesting, I really agree! I don't think I'll have kids as I find life hard enough for myself, so guess I won't pass my genes on. I've never found a role I can really excel in, although I'm hoping to go back to education to find a niche of somekind, possibly in design.

I've worked as a cashier in a cinema for 10 years and never even felt capable of being an assistant manager. At the same time I've been able to do things like repair a complicated break on an expensive bike light using specially cut bits of wood and nails, which I think 95% of people would just have given up on. I'm always able to make repairs and think of solutions to problems, like combining some bike parts in a different way to make a sturdy bracket for a light on another bike, or designing a special protector for my reading books that stops them getting bashed up in my bag. Also, I hate driving, and although I passed my test I haven't driven for about 10 years as I find it so difficult and scary, but I've navigated my way by bike from London to Brighton with a map and compass on my own, part of it after dark. The problem is translating these skills into employment!!

I'd really recommend checking out some of the Ray Mears programmes on the Travel Channel. Some of them are more pure survival techniques (although even these are using ancient techniques and skills), but some he visits aboriginal people with his friend, a paleo-ethnobotanist (I think!) and they try to work out how the aboriginal people of Britain might have lived. Really interesting!
Jim
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Re: Dyspraxia for hunter gatherer people

Post by Jim »

I'm not sure I agree.. The further back in history you go the more Darwin's theory of evolution and survival of the fittest seems relevant.

I'm not convinced a dyspraxic person would have coped very well in pre-historic or ancient times as the environment would have been brutally harsh. I can't imagine myself having been much use as hunter, warrior or labourer.

Indeed I believe the evolution of society and technology has probably helped in many ways, although I am fascinated by history I'm glad I live in modern times.
“When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie
That's amore” :whistle:
ssuma
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Re: Dyspraxia for hunter gatherer people

Post by ssuma »

Jim wrote:I'm not sure I agree.. The further back in history you go the more Darwin's theory of evolution and survival of the fittest seems relevant.

I'm not convinced a dyspraxic person would have coped very well in pre-historic or ancient times as the environment would have been brutally harsh. I can't imagine myself having been much use as hunter, warrior or labourer.

Indeed I believe the evolution of society and technology has probably helped in many ways, although I am fascinated by history I'm glad I live in modern times.
"Fit" according to Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection only implies how many offsprings an individual produced that survived into adulthood to produce more offsprings, nothing more. Sure, there could be a correlation between individuals doing well in nature/society and fitness, but it is not always true. You could be the most successful man in society, but if you have no one to pass on your genes, you are not fit. Frankly, mother nature doesn't always agree with human's social perception on what is fit or not fit.

One thing that baffled many archaeologists/anthropologists is how our modern human ancestors outcompeted the Neanderthals when they first set foot on Europe and Asia from Africa. Neanderthals were definitely stronger and more adaptive to Europe's environment than our modern human ancestors were. However, our modern human ancestors eventually outcompeted them and drove them into extinction (though there were some hybirdization). In the past, many thought it was our intelligence, but interestingly, based on current research and our understanding of what constituted higher cognitive capabilities in the brain, the Neanderthals were still better than our modern human ancestors. So somehow our ancestors, who seemed to be inferior in every way when compared to the Neanderthals, won the day!

There are also so many genes that appeared to be seemingly maladaptive but is actually adaptive in certain environment. For instance, the gene that coded for sickle cell anemia (a very terrible disorder) also code for immunity against malaria. Moreover, recent research has shown that people who are dyslexic actually have a higher "spatial" awareness than non-dyslexics.

It should be noted it was Herbert Spencer a "Victorian-era" sociologist, not Charles Darwin, who invented the phrase "Survival of the Fittest". Charles Darwin, himself is skeptical whether it works with the theory and Alfred Wallace, who conceive the theory of evolution through with Charles Darwin, flat-out opposes it. "Survival of the Fittest" actually fell under the realm of Social Darwinin; the theory is by and large not supported by the scientific community. It was only adopted in the past because it fits the belief of those who propelled them, mainly because some men (specifically some social elites of the day) believed their lives are worth more than others. IMO, it is a very dangerous belief. Specifically, Social Darwinists have in fact inflicted some of the greatest calamities men ever inflicted upon themselves (I.E. some of the more brutal episodes of 19th century colonialism, the Holocaust, the Second World War, ...etc). IMO, I don't think any mortal being can place a value on anyone's life and social darwinists completely crossed that moral line.

I don't want to promote the idea that life is all about passing on the genes. I certainly believed there are more to life than just that. However, I just want to note the fact that so many of us are dyspraxia meant that the genes for dyspraxia survived all these years in the human genome for a reason. There are so many things we don't know, hence, for the sake of humanity, I honestly don't think we should just give up on ourselves as nature have never give up on the "genes" that coded for dyspraxia. Our environment constantly changes, and natural selection always favors organisms with more genetic diversity over those with less, who knows what will happen in the future, perhaps with the advent of certain technology, the gene for dyspraxia will be sought for again, so we should never lose hope.

PS: Sorry, I do have an obsession with history and theories of evolution. :grin:
Mr_Tom_one
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Re: Dyspraxia for hunter gatherer people

Post by Mr_Tom_one »

Hey Jim,

I definitely get what you're saying. In general I don't think I'd have lasted long in a lot of situations - from hunter, warrior, miner, farmer, even something like a factory clerk in Victorian times. Might have been OK as a craftsman or been very lucky and done art or writing of somekind, but even today that's hard.

What I really mean is if you look at very primitive (if that's an acceptable term) societies, where people live in tribes, I think dyspraxic strengths do have a place. I don't mean I'd live longer than average, but think I could add something to a small group which others might not have. In my life I have lots of weaknesses ( I still live with my Mum at 36), but then there are some areas where I seem to be way better than most other people. Things like long term memory, mending things, expressing certain ideas in a different way, being patient with people, stuff like that. They are strengths, but they don't really lend themselves to 'jobs' in our modern term.

Anyway, just my opinion :) I love history too but am also very glad to live in a time of computers, books, film, TV, modern medicine, sanitation, no wolves or bears to eat me etc. etc.
Tom fod
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Re: Dyspraxia for hunter gatherer people

Post by Tom fod »

Tonm

Wow this is a really interesting thread. Thanks for initiating it. I wanted to draw out a couple of themes and contribute some of my thoughts.

I can completely understand why some might take a pessimistic view. I could definitely see myself trampled by woolly mammoth or mauled by sabre tooth tiger or chopping a finger with a flint axe and succumbing to sepsis. I believe Dyspraxia often does mean we're adaptable and determined - we have to be! Though equally we can very much feel that things are against us due to the competitive nature of society and that we’ll more likely be judged for our failures than our successes.

I’m not the most skilled person when it comes to DIY but I have always strived to be as self -reliant as possible and like to be creative. I think I have something of the mad inventor about me and will have a go at mending/building things that "m able to convince myself are within my capacity and have some successes I can feel proud of.

I think there are jobs that we can do well if employers allow the flexibility to mould roles around us rather than try to make us fit the job role as defined for a typical employee wherein some aspects may be very difficult or nigh impossible. The demand to do everything at speed when we often prefer to work more slowly and deliver a higher quality/crafted outcome don’t play to our strengths. I believe there's an Einstein quote saying something along the lines if, if you judge a fish for it's ability to ride a bicycle it will always think itself stupid.

The whole eugenics thing is easy to ascribe to but look at the warning from history. The leaders of the Nazi party didn't exactly fit the ideals they espoused and are a prime example of what happens if people try to stamp out diversity in favour of their own twisted ideals. Excluding whole groups of people because they're different is a bad idea. A society where different thinkers are heard and listened to, can and will prosper. Different thinkers like Albert Einstein (possibly dyspraxic?) Alan Turing (another neurodiverse person) would have been persecuted by the Nazis but boith played a parts that either indirectly or directly contributed to the Allies’ eventual victory.
Tom
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Mr_Tom_one
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Re: Dyspraxia for hunter gatherer people

Post by Mr_Tom_one »

Ah, glad it's interesting :) Pretty crazy to go from early man to eugenics in a thread!

This is the episode which made me think especially about hunter gatherers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpzICbEqIAA

There are lots of episodes with similar groups of people. I guess I just don't know enough about their lives to really understand what they do in an average day. But - don't think they have to have great timekeeping, not many possessions to lose track of, no lists of numbers or letters to get lost with, is there the same pressure to multitask? I don't know. I think being a creative thinker with a good long term memory must be an advantage in that kind of environment, where there are few supplies and no reference books to look at. I don't know though - just my theory :D
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